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Denny
Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2006 12:05:57 PM

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Does anybody know why Link, who was apparently a Christian in the first two games (shield with a cross) was changed to a pagan? It's the same with whole Hyrule. In the good old NES-times they believed in God (crosses also on gravestones) and now they worship these three bimbos.

P.S.: Did you notice that the Triforce represents attributes that fit for God and his son:
God --> Power (God is almighty)
Jesus Christ --> Courage (He accepted to die on the cross)
The Holy Spirit --> Wisdom (The Holy Spirit unites God and Jesus, who are both wise)
Uber Newb
Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2006 1:16:50 PM


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I don't really think the crosses meant Christianity or anything. I'm pretty sure they were just used as decorative devices. Furthermore, what does paganism have to do with Legend of Zelda?


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Dante Diamond
Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:45:13 PM


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He realized that god doesn't exist.
Denny
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2006 5:41:19 AM

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Quote:
I don't really think the crosses meant Christianity or anything. I'm pretty sure they were just used as decorative devices.
Don't say that too quickly. There were many games in those times that had Christianity included In "Pac-Land" and in the opening screen of the Japan version of "Bomberman II" you can see churches, the guru in "Faxanadu" is actually a Christian priest and his temple is a church: Just try the Japan version and you will not only see a cross at the temple/church, but inside there is even a crucifix with the image of Jesus.
So, it's realistic that the crosses in "The Legend of Zelda" are indeed Christian symbols. I mean, o.k., shields with crosses on it are commonly known, but why should they place them on the grave stones as well?
By the way, I once heard that the red magic book is called a bible in the Japan version, although I don't know if that's true. Can somebody confirm or disprove it?

Quote:
Furthermore, what does paganism have to do with Legend of Zelda?
Firstly, there is the faith in these three goddesses. And secondly Every person who doesn't believe in the one God of Abraham is considered a pagan by the people who believe in this God. That means: Atheists, Buddhists, Hinduists, worshippers of the sun, Zeus-worshippers etc. are pagans while Jews, Christians, Moslems and for example Samaritans are not.

Quote:
He realized that god doesn't exist.
Oh great, and that's why he started to believe in three other goddesses.

By the way, I thought about another theory: The NES titles are the last ones in the chronology, playing long time after "A Link to the Past". Maybe Christianity wasn't known until that time and the Christians came to Hyrule between "ALotP" and "Zelda I" to spread the word.
manuel
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:46:57 AM


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The Japanese like to use religious symbols just because they look interesting. I wouldn't interpret too much into the symbolism of games, especially those from the 80s.

May 16th...
OSG
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2006 11:52:42 AM


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Quote:
What this all brings into question is - What on earth posessed Miyamoto to put a word like [Nabooru] in the game (going all the way back to Zelda II The adventure of Link). I don't think it's coincidence in light of all the other things I've pointed out. Does Miyamoto believe in aliens?


An interesting read, but I don't put any stock into it. All sorts of games (Final Fantasy games come to mind) have all kinds of religious imagery for no apparent reason.

ToddVania
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:22:52 PM

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Link...a pagan? ROFL!
I think all he's interested in is rescuing Zelda and Hyrule. Does that make him: A) Brave? Yes. B) Horny as a goat for Zelda's bones? Probably. C) A pagan? Most certainly not.
Dante Diamond
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:39:26 AM


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"ToddVania" wrote:
Link...a pagan? ROFL!
I think all he's interested in is rescuing Zelda and Hyrule. Does that make him: A) Brave? Yes. B) Horny as a goat for Zelda's bones? Probably. C) A pagan? Most certainly not.



Weren't Pagans real horny bastards?
Luke
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:06:13 PM


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"ToddVania" wrote:
Link...a pagan? ROFL!



I fail to see what's so "ROFL" worthy about Link being a pagan...

According to the Wikipedia article Pagans just worship something other than "the" god.

master_koryu
Posted: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:45:25 PM


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Quote:
By the way, I thought about another theory The NES titles are the last ones in the chronology, playing long time after "A Link to the Past". Maybe Christianity wasn't known until that time and the Christians came to Hyrule between "ALotP" and "Zelda I" to spread the word.


Actually, Windwaker is the last in the timeline and idols of the three godesses appear in it. So unless the Christian movement drowned with Old Hyrule and everyone converted to the old religion again, I seriously doubt this theory.

No Virtue Nor Vice. No Righteous Nor Wicked. No Good Nor Evil. Only Survival.
Denny
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:34:28 PM

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O.k., if anybody still thinks that the crosses in "The Legend of Zelda" for the NES are just there because the developers liked them while they have no religious meaning, I have the definitive proof that NES-Hyrule is indeed a Christian world and that the whole thing was intended by the developers:

To me, no single doubt is left.

The ROM for the famicom Disk System can be downloaded here: http://retronesjuegos2.iespana.es/fds/z.htm.
OSG
Posted: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:57:00 PM


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"Denny" wrote:
definitive proof

The word 'bible' in English literally means 'book'. They come from the same root word. We can see this in other book-related words (bibliography, bibliomania, etc)

Also, a very common use for the word 'bible' is simply 'a holy book/an authoritative book', and not neccecarily the Bible.

And I don't think you can "argue" that that game is "translated" very "well". But if you "did" you could simply look at the "rest" of the intro to find some examples of lazy "translations".

Really, the only conclusion one can come to is that Gannon is an alias. His real name is 'Prince Darkness' and he stole the triforce using his power. :(

Denny
Posted: Friday, October 20, 2006 11:54:54 PM

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Quote:
The word 'bible' in English literally means 'book'. They come from the same root word. We can see this in other book-related words (bibliography, bibliomania, etc)

Firstly "Bible" (Greek: "biblia") means "books", not "book". "Book" would be "biblios".
Secondly: Even if in Ancient Greek the word "bible" simply means "books", that's not the case in modern languages anymore. Historically the words may be interchangeable, but in the English language "bible" and "book"/"books" are not synonyms. You can not say: "Today I bought a bible about animals." In modern languages, the Bible is the holy book of the Christians and Jews and not only a general word for "book". So, the bible in "Zelda" really has to be a bible and not only a generic book.

Quote:
Also, a very common use for the word 'bible' is simply 'a holy book/an authoritative book', and not neccecarily the Bible.

Please prove that. Unless some moron says something like ""Lord of the Rings" is my bible", there is no correct use of the word "bible" if you just mean any holy book. The Bible is always the Jewish/Christian holy book. The Koran for example can not be called a bible. If anyone does that, it's plain wrong. So, there is actually no word definition like

bible (noun, f); -s, -s
1. The holy book of the Jewish and Christian religion
2. General term for a holy book

because definition 2 is not correct.

Quote:
And I don't think you can "argue" that that game is "translated" very "well". But if you "did" you could simply look at the "rest" of the intro to find some examples of lazy "translations".

Of course the game is not translated very well. But unlike the storyline, the passage we talked about just contains a single word, not whole sentences. So, it's just looking into a dictionary to translate a single word. I don't think that there is much to do wrong.

By the way, look what I found in "Zelda II"


So, let's summarize everything
In "The Legend of Zelda" and "Zelda II - The Adventure of Link"
- Link has a cross on his shield, like soldiers in Christian armies,
- the grave stones have crosses, like the Christian grave stones,
- the magic book is a bible (by the way, in the manual artwork it has a cross on it as well)
- there are buildings with crosses on it, like churches,
- there is absolutely no mention of three female goddesses or any other pagan things with religious meaning.

And just because they decided to put up their own religion in the later games, like any adventure today has to have its own stupid religion, you honestly want to tell me that the cross symbols in the NES games have absolutely no meaning (although they are not used randomly, but are placed exactly in places where they also occur in real life: Shield, grave stone, bible, church) and that the word "bible" is a mistranslation and simply means "book" or "holy book"? Sorry, but I think it's not me who makes things up and who sees the facts as he wants to see it. You all are so much influenced by the later "Zelda" games and by the whole franchise which plays in a pagan world, so you don't want to realize that the original idea of Link was that of a Christian hero and not the no-pants-wearing reincarnation of a hero chosen by three goddesses.

<-- Christian | Pagan -->
OneGenerationTooLate
Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2006 12:55:11 AM


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i really wouldnt want to argue with this guy.. he certainly uses what he knows effectively.
greatmightypoo
Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2006 3:01:01 AM


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"OneGenerationTooLate" wrote:
i really wouldnt want to argue with this guy.. he certainly uses what he knows effectively.

Haha.


I really don't see why it matters one way or another. It's a game, which was designed for entertainment and fun.


My IGN Collection
OSG
Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2006 4:39:18 AM


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"Denny" wrote:
Quote:
The word 'bible' in English literally means 'book'. They come from the same root word. We can see this in other book-related words (bibliography, bibliomania, etc)

Firstly "Bible" (Greek: "biblia") means "books", not "book". "Book" would be "biblios".
Secondly: Even if in Ancient Greek the word "bible" simply means "books", that's not the case in modern languages anymore. Historically the words may be interchangeable, but in the English language "bible" and "book"/"books" are not synonyms. You can not say: "Today I bought a bible about animals." In modern languages, the Bible is the holy book of the Christians and Jews and not only a general word for "book". So, the bible in "Zelda" really has to be a bible and not only a generic book.

Quote:
Also, a very common use for the word 'bible' is simply 'a holy book/an authoritative book', and not neccecarily the Bible.

Please prove that. Unless some moron says something like ""Lord of the Rings" is my bible", there is no correct use of the word "bible" if you just mean any holy book. The Bible is always the Jewish/Christian holy book. The Koran for example can not be called a bible. If anyone does that, it's plain wrong. So, there is actually no word definition like

bible (noun, f); -s, -s
1. The holy book of the Jewish and Christian religion
2. General term for a holy book

because definition 2 is not correct.

Quote:
And I don't think you can "argue" that that game is "translated" very "well". But if you "did" you could simply look at the "rest" of the intro to find some examples of lazy "translations".

Of course the game is not translated very well. But unlike the storyline, the passage we talked about just contains a single word, not whole sentences. So, it's just looking into a dictionary to translate a single word. I don't think that there is much to do wrong.

By the way, look what I found in "Zelda II"


So, let's summarize everything
In "The Legend of Zelda" and "Zelda II - The Adventure of Link"
- Link has a cross on his shield, like soldiers in Christian armies,
- the grave stones have crosses, like the Christian grave stones,
- the magic book is a bible (by the way, in the manual artwork it has a cross on it as well)
- there are buildings with crosses on it, like churches (I found it by chance while playing with a downloaded save state. Does anybody know how to enter the church (the upper door)?)
- there is absolutely no mention of three female goddesses or any other pagan things with religious meaning.

And just because they decided to put up their own religion in the later games, like any adventure today has to have its own stupid religion, you honestly want to tell me that the cross symbols in the NES games have absolutely no meaning (although they are not used randomly, but are placed exactly in places where they also occur in real life: Shield, grave stone, bible, church) and that the word "bible" is a mistranslation and simply means "book" or "holy book"? Sorry, but I think it's not me who makes things up and who sees the facts as he wants to see it. You all are so much influenced by the later "Zelda" games and by the whole franchise which plays in a pagan world, so you don't want to realize that the original idea of Link was that of a Christian hero and not the no-pants-wearing reincarnation of a hero chosen by three goddesses.

<-- Christian | Pagan -->

tl;dr

Denny
Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2006 8:31:51 AM

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Quote:
tl;dr

???
Commander Campkill
Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2006 12:26:35 PM


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"greatmightypoo" wrote:
I really don't see why it matters one way or another. It's a game, which was designed for entertainment and fun.


exactly what i was thinking ever since this topic started. :P

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ToddVania
Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2006 10:29:34 PM

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"Commander Campkill" wrote:
"greatmightypoo" wrote:
I really don't see why it matters one way or another. It's a game, which was designed for entertainment and fun.


exactly what i was thinking ever since this topic started.

Triple that. I only put in my two cents for humor value, which evidently didn't work.
Commander Campkill
Posted: Monday, October 23, 2006 2:41:20 AM


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Denny might enjoy this. http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=563433&topic=31255310

the guy talks about connections between the first Legend of Zelda and the Catholic religion (rather than Christian) he makes some pretty good connections. but i still say who cares and just play the damn game :P

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